Archive for the ‘Panini’ Category

Ontogeny, Phylogeny and Epigeny: Or the revival of Race, racism and Racialism?

July 12, 2009

Ontogeny, Phylogeny and Epigeny:

Or the revival of Race, racism and Racialism?

Acknowledgement: I am an independent researcher and freelancer and I get data and information from others and from which applying thinking processes, I am writing based on what I have understood. Therefore, naturally, but for interpretation, I cannot claim anything of my own in forming any new hypothesis, theory or established law, so that it could be applicable. Indian tradition has been to acknowledge the source of knowledge and wisdom and that is why in every text, it is submitted that so-and-so told this to so-and-so and such knowledge system has come to me and I am passing on to the progeny for the betterment[1]. This type of acknowledging the source research methodology is strikingly same in the ancient Sanskrit and Tamil literature[2] and therefore, the readers could find such concurrence, confluence and continuance of tradition, heritage, culture and civilization of India. Thus, in the stratum and continuum of languages in spite of their Aryan-Dravidian dichotomy, they fall in the same phylum without any epigenetic variance.

However, the non-Indian methodology has been to claim “everything is mine” attitude. And not only that, the dangerous practice has been borrowing, copying or even carrying out complete plagiarism, they destroyed the sources to deny the credit to the original people. This has happened many times in Indian history[3].

I know that under the guise of scientific principles, we are dealing with pseudo-scientific pursuits that were condemned and consigned to dustbins some 60 years ago[4]. The expressions – anthropology, ethnology, philology, linguistics, etymology, lexicography, morphology, brachycephalic / mesocephalic / dolicocephalic indices, phrenology, prognathism, etc., and the connected concepts including blood theory (blue blood, plebeian blood), endogamy, exogamy, eugenics, miscegenation, cross-breeding, are not at all new for any Indologist, serious researcher or Sanskrit student in India or elsewhere[5]. However, it is clear that some scholars, group of pundits or groups of chosen experts have decided to revive such race, racial and racialist hypotheses and theories to divide people, create misunderstanding and pit people against each other for conflicts. I am afraid to note that the Oxford dictionaries themselves started giving different meanings, as I have been consciously using the dictionaries used by family of four generations[6].

Introduction: It is not a confused noise or noises made by a number of voices[7] or any divine or evolutionary force made the owners of voices or the noise-producers to get confused the languages[8] during their hypothesis building processes. A group of inter-disciplinary scholars have joined together and revived the 100-150 years old linguistics, philology, race theories based on blood etc., almost in the same terminology with certain changes under the guise of modern and scientific data. When the god-believing racists and racialists joined ontology, teleology, autology, autogenesis, homogenesis, heterogenesis and such other expressions were also used. Thus, besides the same expressions like etymology, morphology, phonology, phonetics, etc., ontogeny, phylogeny, epigeny and other expressions are used. They are discussed.

Ontogenesis: In biological connotation onto + genesis, it is nothing but nature + genesis, i,e, naturally producing or produced, thus, explained as development of an individual organism or anatomical or behavioural feature from the earlier stage to maturity.

Thus, when it is borrowed, transported and transformed to linguistic studies,  it is the development of a language or a language group produced from people with specific individual organism or anatomical or behavioural feature from the earlier stage to maturity. Ontogenesis is the development of a language or a language group produced from people with specific individual organism or anatomical or behavioural feature from the earlier stage to maturity.

Ontogeny deals with ontogenesis. Here, the meaning of ontology has to be analyzed in the context, as it differs from time to time as used by the westerners themselves. The ontological argument was used by the Archbishop Anselm of England and Descartes, the French philosopher to prove the existence of God. According to this argument, the very subjective notion of God, implanted in our minds by God Himself, is enough to justify God’s objective existence. Thus, they related it to mind or something subjective emanating from the mind and thinking. Ontology was defined as the department of metaphysics concerned with the essence of things or being in the abstract[9](1934). However, now the meaning of ontology has been “the branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature of being[10] (1999).

Phylogenesis: Phylum + genesis = class + origin and thus, again, in biology, phylogenesis is the evolutionary development and classification of species or group of organism [The Greek phule means race or tribe].

Phylum: The Greek etymology of Phylum connotes several meanings in the context and as well as how they are used to get familiarized and understood.

From the different connotation of Phul / pul, and its combination, it is known that phylum is the race, class, division, family originating from a particular phallic or phullon or combination thereof[11]. Phuletes = tribes-man

Phullon = leaf, female sexual organ

Phulon, = race,

phule = tribe

pule = gate

puloros = gate keeper

phusallis = bladder

phallic = male sexual organ

Thus, its meaning is given as follows:

  1. Zoology: It is a principal taxonomic category that ranks above class and below kingdom, equivalent to the division in botany.
  1. Linguistics: It is a group of languages related to each other class closely than those forming a family.

Phylogeny: Generally, it is explained as the branch of biology concerned with phylogenesis. Phylogenesis is the evolutionary development and classification of a species or group of organism. Here, the meaning of phylum as explained has to be taken into consideration carefully.

Thus, again importing into linguistics, it is the evolutionary development and classification of a language of group of languages spoken by or still being spoken by certain people or group of people. Phylogenesis is the evolutionary development and classification of a language of group of languages spoken by or still being spoken by certain people or group of people.

Epigeny: epi + geny = upon / above forming / producing / originating, i.e, something is created / produced / originated upon/ above another.

Epigenesis: In biology, it is progressive development of an embryo from an undifferentiated egg-cell.

Thus, it is progressive development of a language or group of languages spoken by a group of people of groups of people.

However, epigenetic has different connotations as follows:

  1. Biology: resulting from external factor rather than genetic influences.
  1. Biology: of or relating to epigenesis.
  1. Geology: formed later than the surrounding or underlying rocks.

So extending to incorporate such concept, it is metamorphoses to the following exigencies:

  1. External factor: It is a process of progressive development of a language or group of languages spoken by a group of people of groups of people resulting from external factor
  1. Genetic influence: It is a process of progressive development of a language or group of languages spoken by a group of people of groups of people resulting genetic influences.
  1. Based on others: It is a process of progressive development of a language or group of languages spoken by a group of people of groups of people formed later than the surrounding or underlying linguistic influences.

Incidentally the OED (1934) defines[12], “epigenesis as the formation of organic germ as a new product; theory of epigenesist, that the germ is brought into existence, not merely developed, in process of reproduction”.

Hypogeny, hypogenesis, hypogenetic processes: In contrast to epigeny, epigenesist and epigenetic processes proposed, discussed and debated, the hypogeny, hypogenesis, hypogenetic processes should also be considered in the case of language and language origins.

Autogeny, monogeny and heterogeny: In this context, the following processes should also be considered:

Autogeny: auto + geny = generated itself, arising from within or forming a thing itself and so on. Accordingly, the meanings of autogenous, autogenesis, autogenetic etc., should be construed and applied.

Monogeny: mono + geny = generated, produced or created from only one source / place. Accordingly, the meanings of monogenous, monogenesis, monogenetic etc., should be construed and applied.

Heterogeny: hetero + geny = generated, produced or created from more than one place or many places. Accordingly, the meanings of heterogenous, heterogenesis, hetrogenetic etc., should be construed and applied.

As pointed, out these expressions have not been new or something coined now, as they were used consciously with purpose and purport to convey race, racial and racialist hypotheses and theories using pseudo-scientific concepts and precepts. Such race, racist and racialist hypotheses and theories led to the two world wars killing millions of people.

Michael Witzel conferences 2009

Witzel, Darwin and Bible:  The Asiatic Association[13] has declared the so-called “conferences” of Michael Wizel: “Dr. Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University (USA), will deliver a set of three conferences in India. A very proper event in the year of the commemoration of Charles Darwin (1800-1882), the famous scientist who was opposed by the Christian church for so long time. Prof. Witzel is well known scientist whose thesis on the script of the Indus Valley Civilization raised a lively debate among the radical Hindus. This is the calendar of his lectures:

  • 8 July 2009. The Madras Sanskrit College, Chennai organized by Indus Research Centre, Roja Muthaiah Research Library (Jubliee lectures).
  • 9 July 2009. Nehru Memorial Library, or Jawaharlal Nehru Institute of Advanced Study, New Delhi.
  • 10 July 2009. India International Centre, New Delhi.”
  • Dr. Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University (USA), will deliver a set of three conferences in India.

Delivering set of conferences has been the tradition of the Christians and later they declare that they had such conferences with the heathens and won them through debates.

  • A very proper event in the year of the commemoration of Charles Darwin (1800-1882), the famous scientist who was opposed by the Christian church for so long time.

One should note the language used here as such conferences have been to commemorate Darwin who was opposed by the Church or the church that opposed Darwin! If the church opposed Darwin, it is intriguing to note that Wizel to carryout his linguistic phylogenetic trees planting in India.

  • Prof. Witzel is well known scientist whose thesis on the script of the Indus Valley Civilization raised a lively debate among the radical Hindus.

How the website uses such offending expression? Why his intellectual hypothesis should have raised “a lively debate”? Has he been a rabble-rouser then? The radical Hindus include all types so-called Hindutvawadis – fundamental fanatics, extreme activists and die-hard militants. That is why he was given police protection that equaled or exceeded the strength of audience! Ironically, among the “radical Hindus” who attended have been Iravatham Mahadevan, N. Mahalingam, Sankaranarayanan, Ramakrishnan, Prof. Dass, and many others. In fact, I. Mahadevan openly declared that he has fundamental difference with Witzel, about his assertion that IVC script does not have any language system at all.

  • This is the calendar of his lectures

However, the calendar and program changed, covered up and even perhaps kept secret, because of security reasons!

The communal, parochial and fundamental psyche of the accusers: About Michael Witzel, many allegations and accusations have been made[14]. His friends and colleagues like Steve Farmer and others could support and carry out propaganda blaming Indians as Hinduvawadis, right-wing ideologists and so on, but they themselves have exhibited more such characteristics and qualities by vomiting out foul language, which they cannot claim[15], “since god created the world through the power of language” (Genesis 1:28 of Bible), “we are also using”. When Steve pounces upon Kanchan Gupta ferociously, he should eat his own words what he is writing about others. Without arguing honestly or intellectually, the same Steve Farmer prevented and blocked my postings in his and ran away[16]. His another collaborator – Francesco Brighenti also used to adopt the same tactics. Now, Michael Witzel has done the same thing in India. Without answering, he simply moved away from place to place.  If Steve could use expressions like “right-wing”, “closely associated with Hindutva right”, and could use “Hindu radicals[17] etc., they could be also easily identified and held responsible for such cognizable writings, speech and acts. Therefore, the accusers themselves now stand accused for their blatant exhibited qualities. Under the cover of “Wales Sanskrit Professor”, “Harvard University” etc., these learned scholars have been blaspheming and denigrating Indians and definitely such attitude is unbecoming of the status, they have. In deed, the Chennai “Conferences” has exposed the “scholarship” of “Wales Sanskrit Professor” at “Harvard University, USA”. Though, the Professor has given his visiting cards to the questioner[18], he has not so far sent his papers or clarified the questions raised in front of selected Sanskrit professors, Pundits and scholars of Chennai and Madras University.

Taking Darwin to beat Darwin to with-hold the babel of tower: In his presentation at “Darwin” conference, he began with a brief overview of opinions about the origin of human language and the controversial question of Neanderthal speech. Quickly moving from the language of the ‘African Eve’ to the specific ones of the subcontinent, a brief overview is given of the prehistoric and current South Asian language families as well as their development over the past c. 5000 years. The equivalents of phylogeny and epigenetics in linguistics are then dealt with, that is, the successful (Darwinian style) phylogenetic reconstruction of language families (as ‘trees’), which is interfered by the separate wave-like spread of certain features across linguistic boundaries, even across language families. A combination of both features lead to the emergence of the current South Asian linguistic area (sprachbund). This development has made the structure of Indo-Aryan, Dravidian or Munda similar to each other but it could not eliminate most of their individual characteristics.

  • Thus, just like “liberation theology”, parallel “Darwin model” is proposed to have a Black Jehovah, Black Mary, Black Joseph and of course a Black Jesus, Black Christ and then merging to Black Jesus Christ!
  • As Marxists already proposed to accept the invasion but stick to migration, the migration or movement of language-speaking people were considered.
  • He was also using the expression “Father Heaven[19] instead of the usual “Father” in his linguistic interpretation to show the “unity” of Indo-Aryan language group.
  • Now, the migration, settlement, stratification and solidification of language stratums would be identified to interpret language continuum as para-X, Pro-X, epi-X, hypo-X, hybrid-X , where X could be any language as hypothesized.

Refutation of such hypothesized ideology: Formation of languages based on phylogenetic and epigenetic hypotheses are refuted as follows:

1.  The monogenic origin of humanity refutes the anthropological studies and heterogenic origins question the linguistic studies that hold that there has been one first language from which all other languages evolved. However, both have been the creation of ontological exercises according to the hidden theological concepts.


2. Chronologically, it was accepted that Sanskrit was the ancient language and then, it was mentioned as Indo-Germanic languages of which Sanskrit was the ancient language. Then, from “Germano-centric”, it was converted to “Euro-centric” to name Indo-Indo-Aryan and then Indo-European.

3. Whatever, the phylogenetic and epigenetic processes and movements experimenting with the languages of chimpanzees and neandarthals, Ramaapithacus always confronted others.

4. With the geological, economic and other factors, people move, migrate and settle and accordingly not only the material stratification, but also the ontological stratification.

5. But as the stratigraphical pattern at a particular place and time could not be correlated and corresponded with any other pattern on the earth in a continent, country or at the same site say 100 metres away, any attempt of asserting that the pattern could have happened exactly like this is quite incorrect.

6. As horizontal and vertical excavations have not been done even at the historical sites to tell exactly what happened in all histories of the ancient civilizations, in the ontological, phylogenetical and epigenetic stratums, no such vertical or horizontal excavations could be conducted to analyze and come to any specific conditions.

7. We have to wait and see how many chimpanzees and Neanderthal men are converting into Rigvedic phyla to learn and speak Sanskrit that is not Paninian or Kalidasa!

Alan Bersin, and michael witzel

Fund-raising Witzel in India and global economic meltdown: Really, India has become so rich that it could fund to Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University! So far India hired lascars and ships to the Europeans, supplied slaves to European farms, skilled workers to their factories, etc., from 1600 to 1900, but now skilled mental workers of both soft and hard categories are sent. Thanks to the epigenetic processes instead of phylogenetics!

One American friend clarifies, “I knew that Witzel was in financial difficulty and that Harvard was unhappy with his antics. Note that Alan Bersin who was California Education Secretary at the time Witzel launched his campaign was also on the Board of Overseers of the Harvard Corporation (which owns Harvard University). The main function of the Board is fund raising. So Witzel must have promised Bersin that his California campaign would raise funds for Harvard, especially for the beleagured Sanskrit Department which Witzel had made a mess of when he was Chairman. (Please see attachment.) He tried to raise funds for himself also. He advertised his services in Pakistan (in the Internet version of The Dawn) as an anti-Hindu lobbyist. Note that most years Witzel teaches summer courses in elementary Sanskrit that does not go much beyond teaching the Devanagari script. His campaign in India this summer suggests (my guess only) that the Sanskrit Department has no money for summer programs. This could be a reason that he is India. Harvard has lost nearly $8 billion in the financial meltdown or nearly 30% of its assets. It has postponed some important projects including a new science center in Boston. The last thing the Harvard administaration wants or needs is a madcap like Witzel going around antagonizing an affluent and highly educated community like Americans of Indian origin.

As the “white-man’s burden” increased politically and economically, and they wanted to exploit the coloured and blacks some 200 years back and now also they try to exploit accordingly. However, the Whites have Yellowphobia and Hindophobia and thus to check, counter and contain such surges, they would apply the traditional middle-east affiliation against the Chinese and Indians by creating problems then and there. Incidentally, when Witzel has been in India, Indians get news that –

  • China is laying road through POK to reach out poet in the Arabian Sea.
  • However, converted Chinese Mohammedans started rioting killing non-Mohammedans there in the Chinese province.
  • A Chinse ship is coming to anchor at Calicut port.
  • Indians are killed Afganishtan, as the Taliban attacked kafiri-workshops.
  • US President is visiting African countries as a Black with much publicity given.

Thus, the Micheal mania is overshadowed by this Micheal mania and the poor Hindu radicals were simply carried away by such manias.



[1] The western scholars have always ignored and rejected such acknowledgement as myth, mythological and legends, instead of appreciating such research methodology recorded.

[2] In the ancient extant Tamil text, the author has acknowledge at many places that these findings mentioned were told by my predecessors, my forefathers, my elders, my teachers and so on with the characteristic expressions – enbanar pulavar (the well learned said), mozhimanar pulavar (the learned told), pulan nangunartha pulamaiyor (the experts who know about the senses), ………….and so on.

[3] Now the modern subjects are nothing but Indian subjects masqueraded and metamorphosed with English names formed out of Greek and Latin bastardized terminology.

The European missionaries and Company merchants acted as industrial spies and undercover agents of scientists smuggled out many manuscripts out of India and developed their scientific and technical ideas out of them.

[4] The UN passed resolutions condemning the race hypotheses and theories and declased that the word “race” should not be used. However, scholars have started using ehtncity, ethnos etc., in the same connotation.

[5] Ruth Benedict, Race, Science and Politics, New York, 1941.

F. M. Ashley Montagu, Man’s Most Dangerous Myth – The Fallacy of Race, New York, 1942.

W. Earl Count, This is race – An Anthology of Selected from the International Literature on the Races of Man, New York, 1950.

Alan Burns, Colour Prejudice, London, 1948.

[6] 1911 (H. W. Fowler), 1934 (H. G. Le M) – with supplement, 1978 (F. G and  H W. Fowler), 1999 (edited by Judy Pearsall) editions of the Oxford University

[7] Babel = a confused noise made by a number of voices.

[8] Tower of Babel according to western / Christian mythology the jealous tribal god confused the languages of the builders.

[9] OED (1934), p.796.

[10] OED (1999), p. 996

[11] Having understood this meaning, perhaps, the westerners may not criticize the so-called “phallic-worship”!

[12] OED (1934), p.381


[14] Refer to the reports and write-ups of Radha Rajan, Haran and others appearing in different websites.

[15] Steve Farmer, his Ph.D thesis, p.351.

In fact, the full text of his Ph.D thesis should be made public to understand his mind. Of course, here also, we can verify as to whether ontology is consistent with phylogeny or epigeny.

[16] Steve Farmer and his friends without knowing any fundamentals of Tamil were discussing about the dating of “Sangam literature”, when I pointed out, they could not relish.

I Have posted the entire correspondence in


[18] K. V. Ramakrishna Rao confirms that he has not yet received the papes from Prof Michael Witzel, as he promised before the learned audiences.

[19] It comes in the usual prayer of Catholics, where they invoke the Trinity including “Father in Heaven” along with “the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

The First Conference of Micheal Witzel of Harvard University!

July 11, 2009

The First Conference of Micheal Witzel of Harvard University!


It has been again Sanskrit College, Chennai. The date is July 6, 2009 on the eve of Gurupurnima[1]! There is a meeting arranged by the Sanskrit College inviting the Sanskrit Professor of Harvard University. However, the websites[2] declared it as a “conference”!

Sanskrit college entrance, Mylapore

Sanskrit college entrance, Mylapore

Dr N. Mahalingam gave the welcome address introducing the speaker Michael Witzel (hereinader mentioned as MW) as the suitable person to address the gathering at the Sanskrit College. He is 66, born in Germany and got Ph.D at the age of 29 and thus, the Sanskrit College Committee member Mahalingam went on eulogizing the so-called Sanskrit Professor of Harvard University. He says Witzel daily recites Rigveda but we Indians have forgotten Rigveda[3]. As he and been expert in different fields and “his knowledge has expanded widely”. Rigveda has 4,32,000 sounds……Tilak dated it to 8000 BCE, but its date could even go before it, though the western scholars do not accept. The British declared that Rama and Krishna were not historical persons. L. D. Swamikkannu Pillai meddled with Indian chronology at the behest of the British, But Prof Srinivasa Raghavan of Vivekananda College with his astronomical methods fixed date of many important historical events. Both Sanskrit and Tamil are the ancient languages and every person, who knew Tamil, knew Sanskrit also some 200 years ago. After the British period only difference had cropped up in the name of Sanskrit and Tamil. Tolkappiyam has been the most ancient extant Tamil work, One American writer – Frank Joseph has written book on Lost Lemuria, who locates in South East Asia region that submerged some 54,000 YBP. Thus, recently, there had been a lot of research that brought out many important facts. He requested Witzel to go into these details in his linguistic study of the ancient languages.

Dr Sankaranarayanan

Dr Sankaranarayanan

Next Dr Sankaranarayanan introduced the topic of the subject o be dealt with by MW. He was the right person to talk there on two accounts –

  1. He was the Sanskrit professor from the Harvard University and
  2. He had chosen the topic on “Rigveda and its language”[4] (perhaps, culture and civilization also).

After listing out his membership, briefing his academic profile etc., asserted that he was the right person to talk about the topic. He pointed out about MW’s work “Kataranyaka”, a rare work. Earlier it was part of Indian drama and was there in every village, but now it disappeared. Taittreya Upanishd should be read to understand it. He asked MW to present a copy of the book to the KSRI library. Reciting a sloka on Max Mueller that says that Max Mueller was a Mokshamular, he changed it by inserting MW’s name, thus making him another such specie coming from Harvatika! The date of Rigveda cannot be decided as to whether it was 1000 BCE or 1500 BCE etc. It cannot be said definitely as belonging to pre-Harappa, Harappan or proto-Harappan period. Sanskrit was new, though it was old. The word “Sanskrit” was never used to denote a language till 600 CE. It was always used as adjective, till Dandi used it to denote a language. In fact, the language of Indian should be mentioned as “Bharati”, as the language of England is English, France French, the language of Bharat should be Bharati! Amarasimha says, “Brahmi Bharati”. In a partigular type of yagna, “Bharati” is invoked several times…….. It has to be noted that the Sanskrit inscriptions were found throughout India unlike other Indian languages. MW would then talk about the culture. “Culture” connotes properly cultivated behaviour…… There should be inward perfection for good culture…….., as external perfection may not exhibit true character………. Then, comes “civilization”, as it is “civilized status with civilized behaviour……….

The compere intervened to announce as MW was preoccupied and there was shortage of time, there would not be any question answer session. He says that the e-mail of MW would be given and he would answer any question raised by the audience.

Michael Witzel then started his “conference”: “I am happy to be here……tomorrow is Gurupurnima…and we have to remember our teachers…I studied in Allahabad during 1935-37 under my teachers…..Now, here, I will not talk politics and whatever I say, you may not agree with me, but still you ask questions, I may not answer….You may have other opinion also.  As India has many sampradhayas[5], you can treat my views as another sampradhaya……….you may not agree with me, but kindly listen to me. If you have anby questions, I shall answer.

“My study is based upon the inter-disciplinary approach…….the so-called Aryan invasion is outdated. It is a political discussion, but I would not talk about it. My discussion is based on the facts from the Rigveda….the scientific data derived from it…I do not think any genetic expert is here, but my study is based on such scientific principles also. There could be scope of misunderstanding about my theory with limitations, but we have to come to consensus……no doubt Rigveda has antiquity, it is an ancient hymn collection of bronze age. It is bronze age text and not of iron age or stone age…….

“Another point may be agreed by you that the Rigveda was composed by the Rishis. It was composed with a particular type of poetics and alankara using specific syntax. The text was composed accordingly. Rigveda has geographic limits (showing a map covering north-east Punjab area and some parts of Haryana)………..In Afghanisthan also there is a Sarayu, but not that of Ayodhya.

“Rigvedic Sanskrit is not Paninian Sanskrit or Kalidasa Sanskrit. And not even Atharvavea Sanskrit. Linguistics has changed several times during the course of times and accordingly the words too connote differently during different times…..(he explained with certain words)…..”Gachathi” has different connotations…….(his speech is not clear and he was not keeping the mike properly, though repeatedly he was asked to keep it as the audience was not able to listen to him)

“Different languages were spoken in India….Para-munda in the northern India covering Punjab, Kashmir areas…….Munda in MP….(showing a map). Rigveda has a pluralistic language and it could be understood with certain tricks…..If Sanskrit is read differently, we could understand Avestha also.

“Let us take the expression “Father Heaven”… has same pronunciation in different languages. Pitram-pitrem-pitrea-piter and so on. Similarly hasti-haesti-asti-esti-sti-is (he/she/it is) comes like this. So also “They are” can be explained. This pattern is found in he evolution of languages as in IE-EIE-IIr…(showing a PP diagram). Thus, we have two categories of languages……

  1. pre-Vedic – proto-Iranian and
  2. Rigvedic –Avesthan

“Jed-sa-zd-ai etc.


This has been the linguistic sampradhaya………(he was obviously skipping the explanation). On the top of the Himalayas, certain words are used and they are not used on the plains. And these words were coming from tropical climatic areas…….The poetic-alankara used has been close to the Greek……..

“Coming to the Soma plant, it is located in Central Asia near Tajikistan and it came to Iran from Central Asia and then to India. In the words, Yama-yam…also such migration could be noted. People were living in more populated and less populated areas / clusters. The higher level of religion was dominated by the Brahmins and Kshatriyas……then comes Daas / Dasyus and they were accommodated accordingly………City formation had been there accordingly…..Recent archaeological evidences of Haryana also show such pattern.

“Different language groups existed thus in different areas (showing a map through PP). Dravidian languages were spoken in the Southern area (showing the four states – Tamilnadu, AP, Kerala and Karnataka), “Former Dravidian areas” (showing Maharastra), Indus (Sindhu area), Language-X (UP), Khasi (Assam), ……..”Former Austro-Asiatic Areas?” (was shown in between the UP and MP from IVC / Rajasthan to Orissa)…..

“The Sanskrit speaking people were moving with cattle having interaction with others……Thus the names of the Kings mentioned have been local names……At the end of Rigveda, it is interesting to note what happened………

“Coming to the so-called Siva or Pasupathi (showing the IVC seal[6], M-304), actually it is not known what is this deity. How the IVC people called him, we do not know. He – the horned god – is surrounded with four animals and there has been another figure where “a hunter killing a water buffalo in front of a seated horned deity” (Kenoyer[7]). There has been another seal where “a man fighting short horned bull” (Kenoyer[8]). You can see similar figure from Denmark also (showing the photo of Gundestrup Cauldron[9], though he did not mention so). Here also he is surrounded with four different animals If you compare both (showing both figures side by side with IVC seal inverted), we can say, he is not Siva, but some other deity….. This is Mahishashuramardhini. It is not known how the Mahishashuramardhini appears in Hinduism later. Think about it.  Is there any link?

“The people followed both burial and crematory practices…………..

“There is another figure where inside a female, a human figure is shown (showing a seal), perhaps spirit. Its significance has to be studied.

“Now genetic methods are applied to find out the details. Suppose, if your saliva is taken and tested, details would be known to tell who is your father, mother etc. But I do not know how many of you know genetics……Recently, some Indian scholars have brought out data on such genetic studies about the people of India. Their data represented show that the south Indian tribals and Kashmir Brahmins belonged to the same stock. But still, you can find some groups are left out or fall outside the pattern represented. Who are those people? They are from Assam, Nagas and others.

“The picture about the IVC and the Rivedic people has been complicated. Data and information can be obtained from different fields, but they have to be studied together carefully.

“So I stop here and I would like to answer two three questions, if any one of audience would like to do so”.

Witzel KVR at Sanskrit college

Witzel KVR at Sanskrit college

At that time, K. V. Ramakrishna Rao came to the podium and asked the following specific questions by way of clarification. Meanwhile, seeing him Iravatham Mahadevam started insisting that the questions should be short[10]. Anyway, introducing himself, he asked the following questions:

  1. There has been a Bogozkai inscription dated to circa 1450 BCE which specifically mentions about a treaty in which the people invoked the so-called Vedic gods or the Rigvedic gods as mentioned by you according to your sampradhaya[11]. How you correlate and corroborate them linguistically, archaeologically, and chronologically with your sampradhaya?
  1. You have shown two pictures one from IVC and another from Denmark and telling that the so-called deity represented is not that of Rigvedic, though the deity is surrounded by the animals. How could you differentiate it from your sampradhaya and Indian sampradhaya?

Micheal Witzel started answering, but he could not even name the so-called Vedic gods mentioned and Rao was naming as – “Indrasil, Mitrasil, Varunasil, Nasattyas”. He accepted that they were Vedic gods, though the Mittanic people were invoking them after their gods and the language used was like Vedic Sanskrit only. Of course, there is chronological gap.

Rao was asking about the correlation – pointing out how the Soma drinking, Rigvedic Sanskrit speaking people migrating from Central Asia to Iran to India could mention about such deities, how the Mittanis?

N Mahalingam

N Mahalingam

N. Mahalingam intervened and telling that there should not be discussion and Mahadevan was urging to wind up. But Rao was responding that it was important because Indians had been told about such stuff again and again for the last 60 years. He insisted that his e-mail should be given as promised and his full text of the paper also made available for discussion. When Iravatham Mahadevaninterved that it was not possible, Rao requested that at least Michael Witzel could send a copy through e-mail. Micheal Witzel was seen nodding his head and he gave his visiting card to Rao.

Of course, he did not answer the second question. In fact, one person from the audience reminded about this, but the organizers did not care.

The compe’re again intervened and proceeded to thanksgiving.

Then, Dr Deviprasad, the Principal of Sanskrit College talked to point out that the Rigvedic culture cannot be separated from the Indian culture. It is the Indian tradition that worships trees, rivers and mountains even by deification. Of course, the westerners interpret differently. He added that Michael Witzel had not completed his speech and in fact, he might take few hours to complete his talk!

Thus the meeting / Conference was over!

Sanskrit college entrance, Mylapore - centenary

Sanskrit college entrance, Mylapore – centenary

While coming out I saw Haran and another were distributing four-page handout about Michae Witzel (while entering I saw Haran and Radha Rajan were arguing with the police). So when I enquired with the police, the organizers had given a complaint asking for protection of the speaker. When I told them that those who had come there were educated and elite and not of such category as apprehended. I told that the speaker was telling that Siva is not Indian god and so on. The officer retorted, “Is it so? How then that IAS officer Iravatham Mahadevan was keeping quite? He knows everything”. The police informed that they had not obtained permission to stage demonstration against the meeting. The officer added that every body has a right to demonstrate, but they should have obtained prior permission.

Note: This has been prepared based on the notes noted down during the meeting. There are some points to be clarified. And therefore, certain points may be added or amended accordingly later.



[1] Can it be considered as “Teacher’s Day”, the real “Teacher’s Day?

[2] Some “Asiatic” website. In fact, it declares that Micheal Witzel would be participating in three conferences to be held in India!

[3] Is not the shame for Indians to confess so. Who has told Indians not to recite Rigveda daily?

[4] In fact, the full title of his paper or talk was not known, as nothing was mentioned about it.

[5] Sampradhaya is used as equivalent to tradition, traditional way of practice etc., but it might be using in the sense of “methodology”.

[6] Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, 2000, p.112, fig.6.18.

[7] Ibid, p.114, fig.6.24.

[8] Ibid, p.115, Fig. 6.25, a.

[9] Myles Dillon, Celts and Aryans, Indian Institute of Advanced study, Simla, 1975, Picture.7. It is mentioned asa the Horned God (Cernumnos?) as Lord of Animals (Pasupathi).

[10] When he asked Asko Parpola last year, why his paper was prevented by Michael Witzel, whether he was presenting the same paper that he presented at Tokyo, though Asko Parpola started to answer, Iravatham Mahadevan prevented Parpola to tell the details under the pretext of shortage of time and declaed to wind up the meeting!

[11] As the expression “Sampradhaya” was used by MW repeatedly to assert his interpretation over others and insisted that his way of interpretation should be accepted by the Indian Pundits, obviously he was using such expression.