Michael Witzel and Rajaram: Interesting encounters!

Michael Witzel and Rajaram: Interesting encounters!

As I am an Indian and poor man, I could not have gone there to watch fun, but our Sanskrit Professor at Harvard have done a nice coverage to that event and I thank Michael Wizel and present the details as follows:

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id=”message_view_subject”>[Indo-Eurasia] Rajaram, in Boston, requires withdrawal of Horseplay in HarappaSunday, 18 April, 2010 8:45 PM

“Michael Witzel” <witzel@fas.harvard.edu>

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“Michael Witzel” <witzel@fas.harvard.edu>

Dear List,

since it is the weekend, a few amusing details about our old friend,
NS Rajaram’s, talk at MIT last week (4/10) and his subsequent
interview in the local Indian immigrants’ (NRI) newspaper Lokavani
“Voice of the People’ — sponsored by a clueless US immigration lawyer.

Along with one or two of my students, I went to MIT to have some fun.
And fun it was. Some very emotional people (among the c. 40
listeners) objected to our snickering at his “ideas” (see below).

Rajaram indeed repeated all the fantasies and unscientific nonsense
that he has propagated since he abruptly turned, overnight (why?),
from a mathematician at some US colleges and a (very occasional, but
hyped) collaborator of NASA-Houston, into a “historian” back in his
home town of Bangalore in India.

No need to repeat all of this as we have discussed it on and off over
the past decade. (Just read his interview, below)

Only a few highlights.

I thought to challenge his many fantasies (see Lokavani), but as
there was little time and chance, I merely pointed out the obvious:
that his “scientific” dating of the Vedic civilization BEFORE the
Indus civilization (2600-1900 BCE) is impossible precisely on
*scientific* grounds: before 2000 BCE, there were no horses
(caballus) in India, nor had spoke-wheeled chariots been invented by
then. Both are of course prominent in the “preceding” Vedic texts.

Rajaram and friends (e.g., an *always present* loud associate of a
local temple) took up the usual secondary and tertiary ‘arguments’
and ways out: that there were “Indian” horses with seventeen ribs in
the Rgveda (of course *not* a genetic trait of horses [that have
16-18 ribs]),and the Narmadicus horses (well, dead for hundreds of
thousands of years, — along with their 3 toes (!) ). Fun.

Or quoting a Graham Hancock film (Kathy?) … No comment.

More funnily, one young women, objecting emotionally to the husband
of my student, showed him the finger and called him an asshole.
Remember the same from our Dartmouth, Mass. meeting of June 2006?
(Where Rajaram is now invited by the miniscule setup of a “Center of
Indian Studies”, at U. Mass., Darthmouth). See my detailed June 26,
2006 report:

<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Indo- Eurasian_ research/ message/4278>

She also wanted to ‘correct’ my Sanskrit pronunciation of shaanti and
told us the familiar Hindutva standby that we were not entitled, as
non-Indians, to talk about Indian culture. When I told her that, in
that case, she was not entitled to talk about American culture, we
only got blank, non-comprehending stares, even after explaining it
for a 2nd time. — Fun.

But back to Rajaram. More fun: He came up to me after his 2 hour (!)
talk to “greet” me, and I told him to stop lying about me (…
forgetting, by the way, about his monthly missives to my president
and provost to throw me out of the University.. .).

**He then required me to withdraw our 2000 paper “Horseplay in
Harrappa” in the Indian magazine Frontline**
that completely destroyed his credibility, even in the then Hindutva-
led (BJP) circles.

I told him: no way.

He also told the audience that his 2nd volume on the “decipherment’
of the Indus signs would come out now. Cannot wait for more
decipherments such as “mosquito”.. .

And, that he has now shifted to a maritime interpretation (along with
David Frawdley) of the Rgvedic texts. (Good luck with traveling in
the night time sky = samudra!) And to South East Asian maritime
input on Vedic civilization — a pet idea of their part-time fellow
traveller, Koenraad Elst, in Belgium.

And, even more remarkably, researching now a connection between the
late 1st millennium CE Vedanta philosophy and … physics. On that
point, he was challenged by MIT/Harvard students, of course…

For all of this (in Rajaram’s words) see the link and mssg. quoted

At any rate, apart from the loss of our time, it was good weekend
Hope you, too, enjoy his pronouncements. …

Cheers, Michael

His interview in Lokavani: <http://www.lokvani. com/lokvani/ article.php? article_id= 6418>

For convenience, it is reproduced here:

In Conversation With Dr. Navaratna Rajaram
Ranjani Saigal 04/13/2010

(This article is sponsored by Attorney Rachel C. Tadmor)
Dr. Navaratna S. Rajaram is a mathematician and scientist who after more than twenty years as an academic and industrial researcher turned his attention to history and history of science. He has authored several acclaimed books on ancient history including Sarasvati River and the Vedic Civilization, Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization (w/ David Frawley); and The Deciphered Indus Script (w/ Natwar Jha). He is best known for showing the connections between Vedic Mathematics and Indus archaeology and proposing a decipherment of the 5000 year old Indus script jointly with the late Natwar Jha. He is currently visiting faculty at the University of Massachusetts , Center for Indic Studies at Dartmouth.

He spoke to Lokvani about his work and the need for technically minded Indians to learn more about India and its history.

What motivated , a mathematician by profession to do research in Indian history and Indology?

I was always interested in history and history of science. My maternal grandfather Sri R. Vyasa Rao wrote Sri Krishna Caritra in Kannada (my mother tongue) based on Sri Bankima Chandra Chatterji’s Bengali masterpiece of the same name. My study of the work taught me that there advantages to looking at history from a scientific point of view. I had long planned to bring out an English version of that work, which finally happened a few years ago in my English Search for the Historical Krishna. It is not a translation though but a new work that uses a lot of data which was not available to Sri Bankima Chandra.

How did you learn the techniques required to do research in History? Do you consider your “non-training” in the colonial-Eurocentric approach to history an advantage?

I don’t think you need any special training in history except a capacity to look at all claims with skepticism and never to accept anything on authority or reputation. The same is true of science also. In that sense my training in mathematics (and math physics) prepared me well for history.

Why is the Aryan Invasion theory which we now know is a myth important to Indian historians? Why are so many scholars afraid debunking the Aryan theories?

It was important because it was an attempt by outsiders, even those hostile to us, to tell us how we should see ourselves and our heritage. Now that the Aryan myth, not just the theory is dead, we need to move to a new phase– to understand what drove Europeans and even some Indians to hold on to it long after science and history had discredited it. European scholars like Leon Poliakov and Stefan Arvidson (in The Aryan Myth and Aryan Idols) have done it from a European perspective.

But Indian scholars seem to be still reluctant and even timid to face it and hesitant to call a spade a spade and expose these Aryan theories for what they are. It is residual inferiority complex.

Why is colonial-Eurocentric approach towards understanding Indigenous culture still strongly followed in intellectual history circles ?

Inferiority complex that is programmed into Indian humanities and social science programs. This is a colonial hangover or ‘dhimmitude’ towards their former masters. Colonialism may be dead but the mindset of the colonial subject is still there in the intelligentsia. This is by no means limited to India.

Why do western professors studying the history of an Indigenous culture place no value on the multiple sources of literature and  philosophies which guide the lives of the millions in the culture they study that have evolved through the ages some of which totally contradict their writings?

It is precisely because they contradict their long-held positions! It also strikes at the root of their presumption of superiority. But here the problem lies more with Indians than with the Western scholars. A clear message should be sent out that we judge everything on its merit regardless of whether source is indigenous (Indian) or Western, and no special consideration will be shown to anyone. After all this how we judge people and their work in other fields. A theorem in mathematics must be proved, no matter who states it. Why should it be any different in history or any other subject?

What is the danger in allowing  colonial-Eurocentric works go unchallenged?

We must reject all shoddy work, Western or Indian. But because West had a monopoly on such scholarship without competition, it generated a lot of shoddy scholarship. My objection is that it has given rise to shoddy scholarship and nationalistic responses that are also shoddy in scholarship. Now that the field is opening up, we must try to lift the standards of scholarship. But people with a stake in the status quo will fight it.

You have worked on  deciphering the Harappan Script and that claim has been vociferously opposed by professors following the Eurocentric approach. Are professors  closing the doors on Academic research and shutting the window to knowledge by closing their mind and not allowing their students to  look at rational thinking?

I don’t want to make too much of the vitriolic reactions of a handful of frustrated scholars — both Western and Indian — to the solution that Jha and I proposed. Several people, both in India and the West have received our work favorably and others have offered constructive criticisms. Actually the script doesn’t tell us much more than we already know– that the Harappan civilization was Vedic and also the Rig Veda came before Harappan archaeology (of the Indus Valley).

THIS IS THE REAL ISSUE– THE VEDIC-HARAPPAN IDENTITY. The rest is just diversion. Once this basic reality is accepted, it means the collapse of the academic discipline called Indo-European Studies.

As far as the script is concerned, it is just one piece of the puzzle, not the whole solution. Jha and I and David Frawley also have much more now that relate to the Vedic-Harappan equation. Jha and I had made progress towards a successor to our book The Deciphered Indus Script that would place greater emphasis on the Vedic symbolism and the identity of the Harappans. But we decided that in the prevailing climate a book would not get a reasonable hearing and be subjected to diversionary attacks and misinformation campaign. So we decided to wait until the climate turned more normal.

Unhappily, Jha died a few years ago but I and some of my colleagues are working on books on the subject. Now that these hostile academics and their followers have discredited themselves, we may bring out our books in the next few years. But for the desperate diversionary attacks by some scholars — both Western and Indian — worried about their positions and reputations, much of this work would have been available by now. So they succeeded in delaying progress by about a decade, that is all. My regret is that Jha, who made such a major contribution is no longer here to share it.

How do you hope to create a shift in the study of indigenous cultures which are currently being dominated by some powerful academics at prestigious universities?

Ignore their unsupported claims and demand that they give evidence and proof. Look at evidence without being swayed by prestige or reputation.  Above all, don’t give them  any support– financially or in terms of students. Their programs are dwindling, and it would be unwise for a young man or woman to try to make a career or gain fame following in their footsteps.

What advice do you have for our readers?

For young readers, first, study the past but don’t live in the past. See if we can bring ancient wisdom like Vadantic metaphysics to apply to problems of modern physics like quantum reality. Incidentally, this is my current area of interest. Next don’t waste time studying nineteenth century ideas like Aryan and Dravidian, etc. They are dead, no matter what their advocates may claim. (They will also be dead.) Except for details we have pretty much solved the problem of Vedic and Harappan origins and their mutual relationship. So start looking at proto-Vedic and pre-Vedic ages. This will call for a thorough understanding of natural history from the Ice Age to the present and of population genetics.

For everyone– don’t support these hostile programs just because they are at ‘prestigious’ universities or because some of these people have big reputations, at least according to themselves. Most of these are in decline and let them die a natural death. Don’t prolong the agony by giving them any life support.

On the other hand support and organize programs that stress an indigenous perspective like yoga, vedanta and science others that have a rational basis and are scientifically and intellectualy exciting.

Thank you for your time

Thank you

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27 Responses to “Michael Witzel and Rajaram: Interesting encounters!”

  1. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Even if a small linguistic component is added – rebus principle or punning (Witzel Kyoto, 2009 or Sproat in his presentations) or acriphony is added, it qualifies for full literacy. I assume some ’sound coding’ would have been useful to them atleast on some occasions.. the longest seal is 17 characters non-analomous and 26 characters analomous. I have never said that what Farmer is saying is necessarily fully wrong, but even Parpola has been reading them mostly as logograms with a linguistic component. So how much of what Farmer is saying is new apart from the fact that he popularized the idea? These men have been saying almost the same thing and fighting with each other?Till 2900 BC Egypt and Mesopotamia were considered proto-literate even if their texts are shorter(not non-literate!!!!)- even if there is small difference between the 2 maybe the Indus system was more expressive than Egyptian proto-literate- because conditional entropy, order of signs, combinations probably did play a major role in meaning in the Indus script (Korvink). ????Terminologies pertaining to literacy cannot be changed unless all scholars agree – and any demands to change terminology must be met with suspicion, naturally. Only a very small portion of the IVC has been excavated, you know, 5% maybe! Even Farmer agrees “Judging from modern examples and research in the linguistic history of South Asia, the Indus Valley was probably intensely multi linguistic throughout its history. This may have provided the Indus emblem system with an advantage over ordinary writing as a means of providing the civilization with social cohesion. The fact that the majority of inscriptions rely on a surprisingly small core of symbols suggests that the meaning of Indus signs could have potentially been known by almost or all (ALL!!) of the population, resulting in a pervasive quasiliteracy far beyond that achieved in Mesopotamia or Egypt.” No other civlization mass produced writing or (”writing”!!). Where else did they have public signboards then apart from the Indus?
    I can instead cite Farmer and declare it the most literate civilization on erth. And he and I could be saying the same thing. I say such terms must be avoided. if they had learned how to use the rebus principle , they would have used it whenever the need arose. Seal writing is always short . Sproat’s smoking gun cannot be used to test the stability or the complexity of the system. It has weaknesses. It cannot also be used to prove that the Indus script didn’t have a linguistic component.

    Making fun of ancient people is absolutely disgraceful.It is in poor taste~!!!!

    I hope more Indians take up research. people are taking us for a ride.

  2. Harish Says:

    I had a brief email encounter with Michael Witzel and there was one thing which I realized. He was just too loaded with himself to even engage in a pleasant conversation

    I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt but all the different things that come out about him are probably true.

    I would like Harvard to indicate the basis on which he was selected in their department


  3. S. M. Sullivan Says:

    To see an article with a viewpoint entirely at variance with everything said by Witzel, Farmer, Parpola, Fairservis, etc., about Harappan script, go to:


  4. Horacio F. Arganis-Juarez Says:

    With all respect to Mr. Witzel. I the academical formation prohibe to be emotional in our answers. Sarcastic, caustic answer is not scientific, but is emiotional answer in the field of irrational grounds. Firts we need refute with evidence and after we can give a conclusion.
    With my best wishes
    Horacio Francisco Arganis M.A. Ph D candidate for UIE.

    • vedaprakash Says:

      Send a mail to him and get the response, so that he can be understood.

    • Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

      Dear Horacio,

      We have nothing both the greatest respect for scholars. American and European scholars have contributed immensely to the study of India’s and the world’s past. But I have been going through the ‘Indo-Eurasian research list’ and have been quite alarmed. He has been causing havoc everywhere. See the recent controversy on ‘racism’ in academia which was covered in many leading international newspapers which only created chaos and confusion and hardly added anything to human knowledge. According to well-established canons of literacy the Indus has to be considered literate – his contention that it is not a writing system does not hold up to the mildest scrutiny given the fact that so much supplmentary research on the Indus script has been done by RESPONSIBLE American scholars. The urgent need to the day is to encourage more American, European and other international scholars to enter the field. We have no personal vendetta against anybody. Even two decades ago, standards of scholarship were far,far higher. The fact that the situation has now gone out of control means that it needs to be escalated. People who enter the field have to understand the realities of the twenty-first century and understand the implications of Indology on other fields such as science, international relations, better education its ability to contain religious fanaticism, parochialism and the like.

  5. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Witzel and racism at Harvard

    Please go through the Indo-Eurasian research list if you want to find out who is right and who is wrong. There is not a single post by Steve Famer which does not constitute India-bashing directly or indirectly. This is not called scholarship. This is called racism. And the racism in this case is indirectly abetted by Harvard. I don’t know whether he comes to India only for our money. Someone must enlighten me. The so-called scholarly conference on Indology in November 2010 is a farce and has been hijacked by the Farmer-Witzel duo. Again, you don’t have to beleive what I have to say blindly. Please use your judgmement. Do your own homework and then judge. Farmer apparently is proud of his racism.

    There are very good candidates I can recommend for the post at Harvard.
    One is Sheldon I Pollock. Witzel’s continuation is not good for the future of international relations and the future of science.

    • vedaprakash Says:

      What is that “conference on Indology in November 2010”?

      Where it is held?

      • Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

        There is a conference in Harvard to discuss the Indus script (or the Indus ‘script’) and the poverty in Indus studies later this year. Where is the poverty coming from? Good question. Does it come from Indo-centric indologists, Dravidologists, Euro-centric indologists, marxists or hindutvavaadis? Or from the lack of collaboration from various camps? Farmer has to go armed with bodyguards as he himself states. The whole field needs a shake-up atleast attidudinally.

  6. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Please find the response by Steve farmer . He is happy that India is no longer represented in a new book. Then why do they have to be indologists? Let them resign. This is not an isolated instance. This happens with them all the time.

    re: [Indo-Eurasia] BOOKS: Visible Language

    This book is not actually out yet, but when it is, it will be available for sale
    as well as for download free of charge at:


    Some teasers from the exhibition installation are appearing on facebook at

    -Chuck Jones-

    —- Original message —-
    Steve Farmer wrote:
    > New book out from the Oriental Institute, passed on
    > from the Agade List.
    > Note how the so-called “Indus script” — which is
    > certainly not a “script” as linguists view that term — is
    > slowly but surely disappearing from the world of international
    > scholarship. About time, and I’m happy with Michael and Richard
    > to have started that process.
    > Steve

  7. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    P.S Indology should flourish in Harvard and elsewhere – that is what we all want . But is this the ideal? I invite other commentors to judge.

  8. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Please find the response by Steve farmer . He is happy that India is no longer represented in a new book. Then why do they have to be indologists? Let them resign. This is not an isolated instance. This happens with them all the time.

    re: [Indo-Eurasia] BOOKS: Visible Language

    This book is not actually out yet, but when it is, it will be available for sale
    as well as for download free of charge at:


    Some teasers from the exhibition installation are appearing on facebook at

    -Chuck Jones-

    —- Original message —-
    Steve Farmer wrote:
    > New book out from the Oriental Institute, passed on
    > from the Agade List.
    > Note how the so-called “Indus script” — which is
    > certainly not a “script” as linguists view that term — is
    > slowly but surely disappearing from the world of international
    > scholarship. About time, and I’m happy with Michael and Richard
    > to have started that process.
    > Steve

    P.S Indology should flourish in Harvard and elsewhere – that is what we all want . But is this the ideal? I invite other commentors to judge. This is not an isolated instance!!

  9. Dr Bhudia -Vedic Science Maths Says:

    From: kutchsciencefoundation@hotmail.com

    Westerners learn sanskrit but thts does not teach them every thing as it should be. Sanskrit and our Languages are PHONETIC languages and westeners though learn SANSKRIT but can not understand how the phonatic language is missed by them. see couple of great examples of EGYPT HAT SHEP SUT and CHITRAL civilisations are mis interpreted by those mistakers.

    previous email confirmation with Genetic proofs -Ancient civilisation of KUTCh and its relation to all ancient civilisation all over the world‏

    Dear EDITORIALS, MEDCOs, Friends of the Science, History, ARCHEO – Anthropology and GEO-Archeology,

    We do have all decoding – Codies in ARCHAEOLOGICAl section of our reference library, of OLD Persian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian and ancient language used at that time e.g. AVESTHAN coding, codices in MUDRAYA (today’s Egypt)
    Regars and Thanks for your all co-operative support and comments.

    Many of language decoding and archaeologist do claim that they have most of decodices of indosaraswati language, but that is not the real fact, it does not decode complete dholavira signboard an mathamatical equations.

    When a PHONATIC langage written in sign codedd language most of half letters or ANUSWARs (nasal sounds N , M) are missing from interpretation because of the non phonatic LANGAUGE INTERPRETER. AVETHAN langage decoding by ARABIC interpreters. and Indus interpretation by western interpreters.

    SIMILARLY a LOST language decodices can not be decyphered with the help INDUS decodises though it matches with similar symboles eg DHLAVIRA symboles match with most of INDUS codices.

    But there are chances to Decode with A LANGUAGE help of lost language like KUTCHI language. and similarity are seen in region of whole of INDUS RIVER BASIN culture. eg “PeY” HeTe, UTHe etc used in region of Hindukush, Swat- Punjab, Sindh and to Kutch and is not limited there but to the middle of central African tribal language of tribes of JUNGLE of GHANA, use “PeY” for “Father”

    One interpretation was as (THE SIGN BOARD TEXT OF “DHOLAVIRA”. the time was passing slowly – there was a lightning-blow. The destruction caused may have brought the meaning to ‘destructive’, then to ‘vile’)

    Meaning THE SIGN BOARD TEXT OF “DHOLAVIRA”. the time was passing slowly – there was a lightning-blow. The destruction caused may have brought the meaning to ‘destructive’, then to ‘vile’.

    This means that there has been fall of big meteors and not the actual lightening as word expectations. The destruction and as the time was not passing means they were waiting for some particular incidence to happen ! but what? may be they were waiting for the Sunrise in the morning but due to the destruction caused by the Falls of meteors that have created sky covered with the dust and there was no sun rise for many months. So their time was not passing and TIME WAS SO SLOW for waiting for the Sun rise. which proves that Kutch Saraswati civilisation were destroyed by the Meteor impacts in the Kutch and so Luna craters and other craters in the Rann Of the Kutch are in fact the true signs of those incidence of the Meteor impact before +3000BC. and Egyptian crater in SW Egypt 24K size is responsible for the destruction of Egypt civilisation which was known as “MUDRAYa” – (Sanskrit word) at that time.

    The text runs from left to right with the following signs : 391- 256- 327- 391- 261- 134- 98-391-391-53. Some people read 134 as 124, but elsewhere it never makes any pair either with 261 or with 98.Therefore, it is 134. The text may be read thus: ci re pau ci ca i pa ci ci bha. There are 5 groups, each of two syllables; namely :
    (i) ci re reflecting in the Vedic adverb cire “for a long time”.
    (ii) pau ci reflecting in the dialectal poc “vile, wicked”.
    (iii) ca i has contracted to ce in a Tantric formula “cAmuNDAyai
    (iv) pa ci reflecting in the verb pac “to cook”.
    (v) ci bha reflecting in the dialectal verb cibh “to crush under the
    Based on these reflections,
    the clause ci re may mean : the time was passing slowly.
    pau (wind) ci (be) may mean : there was a storm. The destruction caused by the storm may have brought the meaning to ‘destructive’, then to ‘vile’.
    ca (light) i (move) is doubtful, but it is perhaps some kind of blessing.
    pa ci refers to some fiery accident, and means : there was a conflagration.
    ci (be) bha (light) means : there was a lightning-blow.

    DNA forum discussion on origin of civilisation and their Indian origin

    Due to partial/incomplete and because of lack of full linguistic and archaeological experience, Similarly KALSH CHITRAL – most of have not visited nor studied they are just reading from internet source. but need to understand all festivals, customs, language etc. I have pictures of INDRA carved in mountains if those KALASH VELLY. CHAUMAS – 4 months of farming. chitral is not written with “S” but pronounced “s” as “Shetral” mean FIELD in KHOWAR lenguage. they worship SHETRApaal as we do as KHETARpaal, geneticaly they are Indo Aryans & many more

    Civilisations of Indus and Saraswati did disappeared long before with the time but as some civilisation moved upstream of the Indus to survive from the attacks from outsiders. so they moved deep in Himalayan hindukush and khaibar valley areas. so they remained undetected and survived till today.
    Known of those are KALASH (KALASH – KUMBH ) valley civilisation and Chitral Culture civilisations in the area of NW frontier of Pakistan – in Hindukush valley area and khaibar valley area of the Himalayan region. both the valley area are on the tributaries of INDUS RIVER BASIN – traced on the satellite maps of Indus river basin and confirmed those are on the banks of tributaries of INDUS RIVER BASIN only. Satellite vies are in out library to explore.

    When most of the area is loosing a traditional culture with an effect of the modernisation. there are some isolated areas are still maintaining their traditions. Though there has been effects of the Political and religious take over but as those are Isolated remote area of Himalaya valley are of Khaibar Ghat and hindukush valley of Himalaya they could retain the original traditions but soon will be lost if not supported.

    Below are some of pictures – 6 – included in mails but if not found with mail – can be requested with a personal request mail.

    Ancient civilisation of KUTCh and its relation to all ancient civilisation all over the world part 2 GEOMETRIC Solutions

    Dear Friends of Science History and Astronomy.

    As described in previous discussion (added to bottom of this email) all civilisations are linked to IdoSaraswati civilisation. And spread all over the world including UAE, Mesopotamia, Egypt nd far across Atlantic in Maya, Inca and Machapichu.

    Looking at the geometric scaled maps and studying their trigonometric relations suggests that those all major civilisations are on the sine curve of the angle of the Earth tilt. Eg sine curve of 23.5 degrees.

    World SINE CURVE MAP – If any of the MAP or Pictures Not seen here, those are attched with Email

    Here are those proofs of the major civilisations places on the sign curve of 23.5 degrees. Not only that but they all are linked with a geometric scales (circle centred at IndoSaraswati civilisation centre in Kutch). And later developments also followed that trend to keep a geometric and trigonometric relation to older civilisations.

    Worlds Geometry/Trigonometric RELATION MAP

    Eg circle centred at indo Saraswati civilisation centre in Kutch pass trough EGYPT . Angkorwat, Mesopotamia etc and also they are not only equidistance but also at equal angle of the Earth tilt.

    These all are well calculated and well planned activity that is not understood by many archaeologists and astronomers too. They also had very good calculative geometric and space science knowledge that is difficult to realise / understand by present Astronomist as they are still dependent to machinery and electronic instruments and deprived of self calculative powerful logic ideas.

    That’s why today archaeologists and astronomers still struggle to understand Stonehenge and not able to get concussive meaning of sign boards in Dholavira Indosaraswati civilisation. Though every one gives their own views but still far from reality. Similarly Egypt’s flying machines carved in tomb pillar lenturns are not known till date though have been captured in 2000.

    Solstice and archaeological MAP

    Here ARE maps of solstice winter and summer and both equinox and its relation to the worlds archaeological sites is shown in diagrammatic maps. Also sign curve map with positions of main archaeological sites, Stonehenge mapping and geometric / trigonometric relations MAP of the civilisation are centred at IndosSraswati IN kutch.

    Stonehenge mapping AND MYSTERY OF SOLSTICES.

    Though THE SOLSTICE NAMED as winter/summer solstice are named incorrectly. Solstice named on the position of the sun. and not the seasons. Where the sun goes eg SUN goes extreme south is southern solstice AND NOT THE WINTER SOLSTICE AS THERE IS SUN THERE IS ALWAYS SUMMER. WINTER SOLTICE HAPPENS WHEN SUN IS EXTREME SOUTH ON TROPIC OF CAPRICONE IN 21DEC. ITS WINTER IN NORTH BUT SUMMER THERE WHERE SOLSTICE IN SOUTH WHER SUN IS AT TROPIC OF CAPRICON. And sun goes extreme north is Northern solstice. THOUGH EQUINOX IS NAMED CORRECTLY.

    Origin of river is the oldest source of river water. if water in the river Origin dries rest of the river also dries along the path. e.g. JAMNOTRI / GANGOTRI etc. Even if the river dries at the distant end the underground water flows if the origin of the river has the water source.

    e.g. Gaggar Hakara of Saraswati river basin. If distant end of river water becomes scarce or dries up the river bed at distant end of the river, the civilisation dependent on water of the river will have to move upstream of the river for the source of water.

    Civilisations Move upstream to wards the origin of river for water as time passed and as water become scarcely at distant end of the river.

    Civilisation on the river banks of the river SARASWATI and civilisations in the Kutch moved upstream to the riverbed where water source was available. Similarly to the river basin of the Indus as river Indus and river Saraswati has common mouth in the present RANN of the KUTCH when it was in the form of the lake.

    Also people of the civilisation moved to the other region linked with water and the sea. To the Middle east and Mesopotamia, (See Dholavira film) map available on request also Indus Decoding is available for reference in reference library.

    Recently No one Visited MARUDA TAKKAR since the area is under the border safety control, but 15000 years older than that of Dholavira !! Ancient port – map available is the world’s oldest port in the RANN of the Kutch in India. Which suggest that, MARUDA TAKKAR was the oldest origin of the civilisation in the world.

    Awaiting for the research from the ASI research team work. They used typical boat to move all over the world by River water channels and Sea, as Dholavira, Indus, haraapan and Egyptian used. So we see similar Boat symbol, which is common in those civilisations.

    Civilisations Navigated by Ancient BOATS and astronomical Compass. So Boat symbol remained common for those civilisations, e.g. Kutch Saraswati civilisation, Egypt and Indus as well.

    Though western and Egyptian archaeological researchers hide many information regarding those facts or do not agree. Or manipulates the in formations. Include Egypt as well as the Egypt itself is suggestive, Egypt’s Original NAME was MUDRAYA.

    MUDRAYA name itself suggestive what it means. If any doubts can be cleared with the Linguistic study. name from an ancient Avestha/ Old Persian. Decoding of Egyptian and OLD PERSIAN AVESTAN languages are available for reference from the reference library. Including ATHARVAN ZARATHUSHTRA (also OLD Persian used atharveda -ATHARVAN ZARATHUSHTRA)

    ALSO Egyptians worshiped Sun GOD (SURYA), Cows as mother of Gods (KAMDHENU), Snake (NAAG DEVA), Eagle – (GARUDA), Kings Ramses and king dynasty of RAMESIS, Queen of the EGYPTIAN KING RAMESIS first was SITARE ,

    Queen Matare (MATA) from maternal queen dynasty. Queen HATSHEPSUT = HAsT kSHEP SUT – has missing phonatic half letter which is not understood by non phonatic languages like arabic/ egyptian/latins

    And also Symbolic language used in MUDRAYA – EGYPT is not equvelent to PHONATIC language. Queen HATSHEPSUT / HAsT kSHEP SUT it self suggestive that she was aginst King dynasty and she used the beard and become the Queen of the Egypt.

    IT interptuted (HAsT kSHEP =HATSHEP) the ruling by King dynasty. and she was not the SUT (SON). Now the name of the queen itself becomes suggestive that Queen HATSHEPSUT = HAsT kSHEP SUT.

    Ancient Languages SANSKRIT, Old PERSIAN language AVESTHA is similar to SANSKRIT and believed derived from Sanskrit. Decoding is available for the reference form the reference library for the ancient Avestha /Old Persian language which was derived from SANSKRIT.

    Decoding of Egyptian and OLD PERSIAN AVESTAN languages are available for reference from the reference library. Including ATHARVAN ZARATHUSHTRA (also OLD Persian used Atharva veda -ATHARVAN ZARATHUSHTRA)

    European Hippies /GIPO believe them selves as original Indian of origin, and also worship STONEHENGE as their worship place as they originated from India and bought Astronomical aspect

    For the Investigation purpose a trench is underway since 1st April2008 for 2weeks investigations. And if truth is not covered up as usual then findings of ancient potteries and the writing and design will prove the fact.

    ESKIMOES – believed to be originated from indian of the AMERICAN origin but now that truth has come out to be original ASIANS – not americans – proven with MATERNAL Mitochondrial genetic study.

    Mitochondrial genetic DNA are the original source of Mother and transmitted from generations to generations from mothers . and Without mother generations do not go on. we can get paternal genes , DNA from any sourse but Mother is always required. that can not be changed.

    Nothing will grow in space – One need the Mother first even in the space if wish to grow. even to germinate seed one has to take earthern material and water to the space to germinate any thing in the space.

    Prehistoric Hair Suggests 1st Eskimos Came From Asia http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080529-eskimo-hair.html
    for National Geographic News May 29, 2008

    A clump of frozen human hair from northwest Greenland suggests that the first Eskimos in the New World did not descend from Native Americans as previously thought but came directly from Asia, a new study says. Furthermore, these pioneer settlers of the far north later died out and did not give rise to the Inuit living in Greenland today.

    The research is based on DNA analysis of ancient hair from a so-called Paleo-Eskimo, which was found preserved in permafrost soil in the Disco Bay area in the 1980s.

    The hair, which belonged to a male who lived some 4,000 years ago, has provided the first ever complete mitochondrial genome for an ancient human, according to a team led by Tom Gilbert of the Center for Ancient Genetics at the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.

    Mitochondrial DNA is passed down from mother to child and thus gives a genetic marker to an individual’s maternal ancestry.

    In the ancient Greenland Eskimo’s case, his hair revealed that his people came from Siberia, the study found.

    The Paleo-Eskimo’s genetic relatives survive today only in small pockets in north-eastern Siberia and the Aleutian Islands, which stretch across the Bering Sea from Alaska to Russia, Gilbert said. (See a map of the islands.)

    Challenging Theories

    Previously, there were two main theories to explain the ancestry of the first Eskimos in Alaska, Canada, and Greenland, Gilbert said.

    The theories held that they either descended from Native Americans who colonized North America at least 14,350 years ago, or they came from the same source area in Siberia that gave rise to modern Eskimos, such as those who have lived in Greenland for the past 1,000 years.

    ‘Then there is a third idea that they were independent to both—and that’s what it turns out to be,’ Gilbert said.

    The new research, which appears tomorrow in the journal Science, suggests that the original Paleo-Eskimos of the New World were replaced by later colonizers, who spread eastward from Siberia.

    Civilisation moved from Kutch MARUDA port to Middle East, to Mesopotamia and Egypt and to Europe, and from Europe to American continent, Across Atlantic MEXICO, Peru brazil Amazon etc.

    People move from one area to other area but they carry on their farming and weaving techniques and so Egyptians do similar farming and cattle farming as well. Common thing for the civilisation in farming and weaving techniques carried with them where ever they go.

    RED Indians / Egyptians all used similar techniques for farming and weaving as indo Sarasvati civilisation used.

    Red Indians carry on their farming techniques they brought with them since then. Including traditional flowers of MERRY GOLD flower used for every holy purpose And to the ancestors.

    MAYA and Mayan books of Mexico suggest that Indian crossed the Atlantic from Europe and lived in Mexican caves before 20000 years ago. Decoding is available – books original information are available for reference form the reference library. Including MAYAN CODOSIS and decoding Mayan language.

    Yours Dr. BHUDIA Science Group Of INDIA
    President:’Kutch Science Foundation’.
    Founder :’Kutch Amateurs Astronomers Club – Bhuj – Kutch’.
    Life Member:’kutch Itihaas Parishad’.
    Do visit our ABOVE Clubs/Groups of Science Groups of India.

  10. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Analyze (!) Focus on items followed by (???) Witzel making fun of Kenoyer’s speech. All apparently pseudo-science. Comes from (a) The future is always the nineteenth century (b) ’show progess’ such that it doesn’t conflict with the nineteenth century. (c) The nineteenth century school of Indology (particularly Germany’s contributions) are God – everything else be damned)

    some data from sensible scholars


    more “interesting” news now, in a recent PR talk by M. Kenoyer (U.
    Wisconsin), given at the Oriental Inst., Chicago.

    Big download: 217 MB.

    All the canards, long-disproved (on this list!), are there. The
    Harappans had:

    * yoga (???)
    * weights with a uniform standard
    * N-S aligned towns
    * passports (!) (???)
    * no war (???)
    * of course no movement of people (except for some merchants) (???)

    * The “script” is discussed at great length. With a proto-script
    developing to the “script” of the Mature Indus period. “We miss a
    Rosetta stone for decipherment” …
    Of course, not one word that the “script” thesis has been contested…

    And, surprisingly the Chinese Western Zhou ruled at 1500 BCE…
    If Harappan chronology (and archeological facts) are as sloppy, may
    all the Harappan gods, Pseudo-Shiva (???) included, save us.


  11. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    History of Yoga


    All these seem to fit a set pattern. If he damages Science like this, rest assured this has to be escalated to the highest levels.

  12. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    All these statements made by Witzel contradict research carried out by all other scholars – all of them American and European .. not just one or two but scores of them. some of them done during the colonial era. please do your own research. And this statement was made by Witzel very recently – few days ago and was read by many people. Doesn’t he understand the realities of the Twenty first century?

  13. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    Pleased to announce the publication of my paper ‘The reconfirmation and reinforcement of the Indus script’ . This shows why the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and longer texts certainly existed in the Indus. This shows why Sproat’s smoking gun is wholly invalid. If Farmer chooses to disagree with me, he has to reply to me point by point. Back to square one

  14. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:


    Facts about the Dholavira signboard
    (f) It is one of the most famous of Harappan inscriptions.
    (g) It was very large in size.
    (h) It was located in Far from Mesopotamia Dholavira and in one of the furthest sites from Mesopotamia.
    (i) It hung over the citadel there.
    (j) It must have represented the name of the place and must have been closely tied to speech: note the sign repetition.
    (k) The sign which was used as a determinative was a very common Indus sign.
    (l) The sign used as a determinative appears to have been also similar to determinatives in other writing systems.
    (m) The Indus script was also related to Proto-Elamite which means it probably had a linguistic component.
    (n) The other signs with which the determinative was used were also common Indus signs.
    (o) Few sensible scholars will now dispute the fact that the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script on the basis of this evidence.
    (p) Few sensible scholars will deny the fact that speech encoding was one of the major functions of the Indus script and had this feature had reached a very precocious maturity.
    (q) This inscription was apparently more closely tied to speech than most proto-Elamite inscriptions.
    (r) Dholavira was not even the most important of sites.
    (s) The fact that it was hung over the citadel meant it was meant to be read by elites.
    (t) It was put to the most frivolous use.
    (u) Speech encoding would have been a prized possession: no one would have used it just for a decorative signboard at far-from-Mesopotamia Dholavira. Why would a man who had inscribed this, done so (a) if nobody else could read it (b) why would he have learnt to encode speech only to inscribe this signboard? This automatically implies the existence of longer texts. It also shows that the Indus elites used more complex forms of communication.
    (v) Even if we assume that speech-encoding was added in Mature Harappan 3B, this logic would still hold good.(w) This logic is already accepted by mainstream Indus archaeologists as a precursor to the existence of longer texts

    Jane Mcintosh states::
    Farmer also draws attention to the absence of long Harappan inscriptions onpotsherds.
    If the Harappan signs were a script, he contends, this absence would make it
    unique among the scripts of literate cultures, who all used potsherds often
    like scrap paper.This need only, imply however, that the Harappans had
    other media that were easier toscribble on, such as cotton cloth or
    wooden boards, or that the writing medium was not wellsuited for
    use on sherds. Likewise the absence of long monumental inscriptions seems
    significant to Farmer, but the Harappans did not create monumental art or
    architecture onwhich such inscriptions might have been written; the
    nearest they came to this is theDholavira signboard, which is quite possibly the
    tip of an iceberg of a now vanished publicinscriptions.”
    “He (Farmer) also considers that the proportion of singleton and rare signs is
    unusually high; other scholars such as Parpola (2005) demonstrate that this is
    not so, sincein general logo-syllabic scripts contain a small corpus of
    frequently used signs and a largenumber of much less common ones.
    Moreover, new signs are continuously added, evenwhen the writing system is
    a fully developed one, something Farmer also denies. Statistically the
    Harappan script does not differ significantly in its sign proportions from other
    logographicscripts. A further point regarding the singletons is
    that Wells (n.d.) has demonstrated thatmany are variants or ligatures of
    basic signs, rather than completely different signs; again,this is
    something to be expected in a genuine script”“Perhaps more significantly, the
    brevity of the majority of the Harappan texts (four to fivesigns on
    average) makes it less likely that signs would repeat within them than it is in the
    longer texts with which Farmer compares them (McIntosh 2008, p. 374).

    Farmers arguments fail to account convincingly for the structural regularity
    analysis have revealed in the usage of Harappan signs. These support the hypothesis that the indus script is a writing system

  15. Shashidhar Sharma Says:

    No more than one simple argument is enough to prove that there was no Aryan invasion into India. It is something like this:

    Everybody knows that decimal numbers have originated in India. They were later, much later, passed down to Arabs. Europeans acquired them from the Arabs.

    Calculation is an important need and even illiterate people need to calculate every now and then. Decimal number system is far more intuitive and easy for calculations. Romans and other Europeans didn’t know decimal numbers but only roman numerals, until way later in middle ages.

    If, as is often claimed, there was some Aryan Invasion then at least some people would be left in their homeland (cause even now there are distinct races in Eurasia and Europe). Those people would need to make calculations in daily life. If they were the Aryans they would use decimal numbers.

    Historians who insist on Aryan invasion also insist that Vedas are no more older than 1500 BC, they assume that then within few centuries those aryans settled in India, invented arguably the most sophisticated language out there (Sanskrit), vedas mathematics and various other sciences and arts, so rapidly that we have the era of Buddha (which according to Indian scriptures comes much later than Ramayan and Mahabharat era). In other words, within a thousand years almost the whole vedic culture (except maybe puranas) was in place.

    Nothing like that seems possible even for this advanced civilization of 21st century. And the question, why the remaining people in Europe and Eurasia didn’t use decimals is still there. If they say that even decimal numbers were invented AFTER aryans had invaded then that would be expecting too much from a tribe of nomads. A period of 1000 years is by no means sufficient for such discoveries especially when discoverers are supposed to be some nomads.
    It is rather surprising that a nomad would find the climate of Europe and Eurasia completely unsuitable for any kind of intellectual excercise (he can’t even calculate in decimal system in that land) but would become extraordinarily intelligent as soon as he arrived in India. Is India magical?

  16. Tejaswini Says:

    The fallacy of AryoDravidanism is utterly due to intellectul dishonesty of Indians who never adopt a holistic attitude towards intra Indian sources and worldwide sources. If Aryan theory is accepted like scientific hypotheses it should be uniform from Scandinavia to India. Then second stage is the identification of people in India who still practice it. The Buddhists/Jains still carry the mantle for two thousand years inspite of invasion. Now Brahmins are considered to be Aryans then whether practices carried on by them represent Aryanism. No. The most important aspect is burning the dead which was practiced nowhere by the whole group of Aryans except in India. The Brahminic way of life is centered wholly around sustaining genetic life source through propiation of Pithrus. An orthodox Brahmin carries out ninetysix shraddams i.e., one shraddam for every four days in a year for which the services of weaver potter and barber are a must. The bones collected after cremation are kept in different sizes of pots and buried deep in the ocean river or waterbodies. Thus practices in Buddhism with regard to disposal of dead is in no way different From Brahminism. The other most important aspect of Brahminism is extensive use of tender mango leaves and different kinds of rice – Akshada Tandulam shalyam fried paddy. These are native to Himalayas belt only. Rice has been cultivated in Bihar for the last seven thousand years. The question is when Indo Aryans are wheat eaters why wasn’t it formed part of birth to death rituals. If the above practices are not Aryans who introduced it and why should Aryans adopt it. The peculiarity about India is that while western India adopted changes in food dress etc., eastern India still retains its age old dress and food. Similarly in Southern India orthodox upper caste still retain food and dress but other classes change their food and dress. It is often said caste rivalry is not on orthodoxy but on roti and beti i.e., food and daughter. Hence the question of absorption and assimilation is a mere humbug and rituals and ceremonies evolved on their own and not due to absorption and assimilation. The propitian of pithrus is common throughout eastern and southern India the degree of sophistication varies from offering of food to initiation of mantras in vernacular or Sanskrit compliance is more among Brahmins of all classes the degree varies in other classes with regard to education. It is also interesting to note that sarcastically SCs/STs are referred as cousins of Brahmins. The question is if Aryans entered through North western India why should the customs all shift to Himalayas. Why aren’t the Aryans use their staple food?from which time onwards they became barechested and why should they? Then we have to surmise that the invading aryans were defeated by Dasyus and became their slaves to shed their upper garment and adopt habits of Dasyus. This may be the correct interpretation since Zend Avesta strongly condemn Vedic Aryans to have become Devas(as a result of defeat in the hands of Dasyus and assimilated among them)and the Iranians and defeated Aryans in India despised one another as Devas and Mlechchas! The Manual Smritis and all other literature glorifying Aryans are only vicarious manifestatin of lamentation of impossibility.

  17. sujayrao2000@yahoo.com Says:


    Please find my two papers below and circulate amongst the skeptics, particularly!

    To state the obvious, the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and a lost corpus did exist.

    Published in the ICFAI journal of history and culture, January 2011

    Published in International journal of philosophy and journal sciences , November 2012

    I am also introducing logo-syllabic thesis B in this paper

    The paper is very self-explanatory!
    does anybody still beg to differ?

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli

  18. sujay rao mandavilli Says:

    sujayrao2000 (signed in using yahoo)

    Please find my two papers below and circulate amongst the skeptics, particularly!

    To state the obvious, the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and a lost corpus did exist.

    Published in the ICFAI journal of history and culture, January 2011.

    Published in International journal of philosophy and journal sciences , November 2012.

    I am also introducing logo-syllabic thesis B in this paper.

    The paper is very self-explanatory!
    does anybody still beg to differ?

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli.

  19. sujay rao mandavilli Says:


    Please find my two papers below and circulate amongst the skeptics, particularly!

    To state the obvious, the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and a lost corpus did exist.

    Published in the ICFAI journal of history and culture, January 2011.

    Published in International journal of philosophy and journal sciences , November 2012.

    I am also introducing logo-syllabic thesis B in this paper.

    The paper is very self-explanatory!
    does anybody still beg to differ?

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli.

  20. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    sujayrao2000 (signed in using yahoo)

    INDUS SCRIPT WAS TRUE WRITING.and a lost corpus existed!

    Please find my two papers below and circulate amongst the skeptics, particularly!

    To state the obvious, the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and a lost corpus did exist.

    Published in the ICFAI journal of history and culture, January 2011.

    Published in International journal of philosophy and journal sciences , November 2012.

    I am also introducing logo-syllabic thesis B in this paper.

    The paper is very self-explanatory!

    does anybody still beg to differ?

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli.

    • S. M. Sullivan Says:

      Yes, Indus script was true writing. It’s an archaic form of Brahmi script. I have not found any evidence at all that it is logosyllabic; it’s a syllabary. Visit ‘Indus Script Dictionary’ at Facebook for a look at the sign list.

  21. Sujay Rao Mandavilli Says:

    I am publishing my sixth research paper directly online as it is an extension of my previous papers. Kindly read pages 4 to 18 as it contains a detailed discussion of the term ‘Aryan’. This paper explains why the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus theories are not tenable.

    Methods to reconstruct the languages of the Harappans were presented in the present and previous papers.

    The older papers were written taking the 19th century school of Indology as a base and working backwards. These may appear to be outdated now (at the end of our very long journey). However, the fundamentals are still correct

    Part one

    Part Two very,very important!

    the first 5 papers were published in peer-reviewed journals — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli sujayrao2012@gmail.com

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